All of the companies that made the leap to greatness had what you characterize as Level 5 leaders. How would you define Level 5 leadership?

 

The Level 5 leader possesses a paradoxical blend of personal humility and professional will. They are self-effacing, reserved even to the point of shyness. Think of Lincoln or Socrates rather than Patton or Caesar. I should point out, too, that we were not looking for Level 5 leaders; in fact, I told our researchers to downplay the role of the top executive so we could avoid the "leadership is everything" line of thinking so common today, where we either "credit the leader" or "blame the leader."

Don't misunderstand me: When I talk about humility and modesty, I don't mean that these Level 5 leaders are not driven to produce outstanding results. They will do whatever it takes to produce great results. That's why I make a point of saying in my book that these are not representative of what have been called "servant leaders." That label conveys the wrong idea.

 

How does the Level 5 leader differ from Level 4-not to mention from Levels 1, 2, and 3?

 

Level 5 leaders are ambitious for the success of the company rather than for themselves; they also want to set up the company for success in the next generation, so it can become even greater. In contrast, the Level 4 leader is not interested in having the company continue on a great level after he's gone; after all, it's a testament to his greatness that his company can't sustain its greatness without him.

 

So where does one find Level 5 leaders?

 

Let me answer that with a story. A number of years ago, a company came to my laboratory, and essentially I was told, "Jim, we are struggling with the question of whether we need to find ourselves a great CEO to make us great." We got to talking about this question-who would replace the founder, and whether there would be a crisis when that person left. The funny thing is that this company began to look at the situation in a different way, and they said, "Our problem is that we keep looking out there, up there, for somebody to lead us into the promised land, rather than looking inside ourselves and asking the question: Who and what do we have already that can make us great?" This company finally concluded that it didn't have a crisis of leadership but a crisis of understanding. We don't really understand what it takes to make us great, they were saying, but if we understand that, then any number of people in this company might be able to make us great. And so, instead of embarking on a wide search for some mythic hero, they looked inside.

 

Can one learn to be a Level 5?

 

In many cases, the answer is yes; in some cases, no. When I look at the Level 5s in our study, I don't think all of them were always Level 5. There were events in their lives that helped to elevate them to Level 5. During World War II, Joe Cullman of Philip Morris got a last-minute change of orders that took him off a ship that went down with all hands in the North Atlantic. For him, it was a very humbling experience to realize that his entire existence hinged on a lucky break. For Darwin Smith, the experience may have been his battle with cancer. I am not an evangelical Christian, but my friends who are say it is very, very humbling to have a Kirkegaardian leap of faith, and Colman Mockler was very much supported by his religious conversion. And for another CEO, it was a child who committed suicide that proved to be a pivotal event in that person's life.